I see my little swipe at predestination struck a nerve:-)

Of course not a syllable of what you've posted here is untrue, and I find it gratifying to see you've worked through the logic step by step. Kudos:-)

However, I consider this just another reason to be certain that a merciful God couldn't possibly exist.

Look. The thoughtful atheist considers their existence in the context you've outlined, nothing more than an incredibly lucky break, something that has just happened. Practically everything we've leaned in the last 300 years of breakneck discovery, support this rather bleak view. However, bleak does not translate to untrue. Reality is not obliged to square with theistic wishful thinking.

We appear to be conciousness, can enjoy life and wonder at the brief lightning flash of our existence. The elements of determination are there certainly, obviously, my actions today are the sum of all the inputs that contribute to them, and the theistic concept of "free will" is little more than a random number generator in my head, magically uncoupled from experience. Thats clearly nonsense.

However, the number and complexity of inputs is so enormous, that functionally we have "free will". I have no idea half the time, why I make the choices I do, and I would hazard that neither do most theists.

Now lets consider theism from the perspective of predestination. This puts a whole new chilling spin on things. Now suddenly our existence is not merely a random outcome, but a specific act of creation. Billions of sentient beings specifically created and "predestined" for Hell.

One can hardly imagine a more malevolent, malicious and calculated act of evil than this idea. The possibility of our free will being little more than a cognitive illusion, a fairly disturbing thought, bleaches into utter insignificance placed alongside theistic predistination. How a conscious, thinking and self respecting creature could then additionally lower themselves to worship such a fiend is quite beyond me.

Hi Brian,

For the record, I've been reading up on calvinism and predestination for a bit now. I got the idea for this post a while back after hearing: William B. Provine (atheist proffesor) said that he belived in predestination. I found it very interesting.

That you brought it was a reminder to follow through with this little survey :-)

Lacking religious explanations, all us atheists can do to answer this question is to examine the laws of physics. For me, such an examination reveals...

Maybe yes, maybe no. But either way, we have to act as though there is free will, otherwise what is the point of trying?

Newtonian physics is deterministic, which means perfect predestination, so any free will or even blind chance would have to have an origin in the non-deterministic realm of quantum mechanics.

I have a personal suspicion that if anyone could truely comprehend how the universe worked, the knowledge would be so depressing they would kill themself at the first chance - but that the human brain is inherently limited in its ability to accept knowledge that would be so detrimental to survival.

so any free will or even blind chance would have to have an origin in the non-deterministic realm of quantum mechanics.

I think even this is a stretch, to call it free will in any event. It reduces free will to a random dice throw. It's not pretty, but introducing God doesn't do anything to erode the compelling logic of (almost) endless chains of cause and effect.

Best not to think about it too often, the beauty of it is that we actually aren't terribly good at grasping the actual scale in time and space of the universe:-) Stands to reason. I mean why would a hairless biped evolved to calculate the parabolic arc of rocks over a few tens of meters be good at contemplating the universe?

Douglas Adams said it best ...

Trin Tragula was a dreamer, a thinker, a speculative philosopher or, as his wife would have it, an idiot. She would nag him incessantly about the utterly inordinate amount of time he spent staring out into space, or mulling over the mechanics of safety pins, or doing spectrographic analyses of pieces of fairy cake.

“Have some sense of proportion!” she would say, sometimes as often as thirty-eight times in a single day.

And so he built the Total Perspective Vortex, just to show her. Into one end he plugged the whole of reality as extrapolated from a piece of fairy cake, and into the other end he plugged his wife: so that when he turned it on she saw in one instant the whole infinity of creation and herself in relation to it.

To Trin Tragula’s horror, the shock completely annihilated her brain; but to his satisfaction he realized that he had proved conclusively that if life is going to exist in a Universe of this size, then the one thing it cannot have is a sense of proportion.

It is quite possible for there to be neither predestination nor free will. The quantum mechanical effects show that - they have no predestination (Baring a hidden variable, but that cant be disproven), so all outcomes are possible. But, its entirely random - so nor is there any free will. Just chance. The actions of an individual could depend on things which, though not predestined, are completly beyond their control.

To go back to the original post - yes that is an excellent list of things we don't choose in our lives, well done.

At the risk of being too prosaic for this learned forum I will now given you a list of just a few of the decisions I have made so far today. Some of them may not have far reaching re-percussions but they were still my individual choices.

Decided to get up after snoozing the alarm twice (not once or 5 times).
Decided to have a shower before making breakfast (not after)
Decided not to shout at boyfriend for not making breakfast while I was in the shower
Decided to wear green skirt not grey trousers.
Decided to wear make-up but not do hair.
Decided to put off nagging boyfriend about his smoking until later
Decided to actually go to work rather than phone up and quit (one I struggle with most mornings)
Decided to procrastinate some work in favour of others and in favour of surfing the net
Decided to make tea for colleagues
Decided... of this is getting boring.

You get the picture. Small decisions, all mine, all affecting my life. Different choices may make my day better or worse. Or may cause me to die earlier or later. I can foresee some possible consequences and not others.

But if I did things differently I would have had a different day.

In conclusion: yes I have control over my life. How ridiculous to suggest otherwise!

- edit - not even ridiculous, childishly irresponsible. "It's not my fault I have a sh*t job. It is my pre-destiny and I am stuck with it." Whingy rubbish. I have a rubbish job because I haven't got around to getting a better one yet!

Jenny: The question is not that you made the decision. It is about the choices you didn't make - could you have chosen differently, or was it determined in advance by the mechanistic progression of physical laws? If so, then free will is only an illusion. It may seem like you choose, but really you were only acting out a script.

Jenny,

Someone who knows you really well will be able to deconstruct all of these actions you took today. At the end, the prognosis will be: predestination.

For example: did you really have a choice to not take a shower? Or was this predestined by the place and time you were born? In the old days, people didn't take showers every day. Even now, there are places in the world where taking showers everyday is not a custom.

The food, the drinks, the clothes, etc., have all been predestined from the get go.

Even the word rubbish was given to you by your culture.

As Suricou said:
"we have to act as though there is free will, otherwise what is the point of trying?"

One more note: my point here is simply to illustrate that Predestination is not unique to Christianity. Naturalism has it too.

Predestination was very popular with those using a naturalistic worldview for a time - from Newton onwards. His equasions presented a very elegant description of the universe in a precise, mathematical way - perfectly predictable, as mechanical as clockwork. A universe of particles moving, colliding, accelerating, all to the dictates of his equasions.

Then quantum mechanics came along, and threw that out the window.

Hi Edgar

Very good post and well thought out. Side note, are you reading up on Calvin, or reading Calvin?

Just curious.

Your friendly Calvinist! ;)

Hi Tim,

I've been reading about Calvinism. I guess I should get a Calvin book. Which one would you recommend?

As Suricou said:
"we have to act as though there is free will, otherwise what is the point of trying?"

You're my kind of thinker EI, but you are freaking me out!!!
Stop it!!

;-)

Suricou Raven: Yes, I could have chosen differently. Some decisions you do make automatically, unthinkingly and these probably are programmed by your personality and so come from your upbringing etc. Other decisions take a concious effort to make.

Sometimes you have to go against your natural inclination, even force yourself painfully outside your comfort zones.

Have you ever done anything that really scares you?

When making a decision like that you are going beyond the limits of your personality and therefore the pre-programming of everything that has gone before.

Your friends are shocked, E. I. Sanchez, because they didn't know you had it in you. In fact you didn't have it in you, until the moment that you did it.

It is when you make a big, scary decision like that that you know that you are in total control of your own life and your own destiny.

And it feels wonderful!

Quantum theory of the gaps?

"Sometimes you have to go against your natural inclination, even force yourself painfully outside your comfort zones."

And even your decision to do this may be predetermined - without some way to see the future, you cant be sure if there was any other possible outcome.

Suricou Raven - how on earth do you get up in the morning?

I am refusing to engage with the intellectual side of this argument because it is unnecessary to get that bogged down in something which is self-evident.

Let's paly the game of "it is all pre-determined and I will never make my own choice" shall we?

I am a good Christian. I accept Jesus as my personal saviour and believe God has a good plan for me in my life, that may be hard at times but is all about my personal growth. Therefore, whatever happens to me is all part of God's plan. I could try harder to improve my life - but why bother to make the effort? Becaue I am a good Christian God will make it all work out for me in the end anyway. So I can stay in bed all day if I want, but i am not being lazy, it is becayuse God's plan for me says that I do nothing. It will all work out for the best anyway because he loves me. I won't go to work today because that is god's plan for me. In fact, I never need to make any effort or decision for myself because that is what God wants.

If you go down this road your whole life can be a complete cop-out. But that was your pre-destined plan made by God! To try and do anything else is actually impossible!

You know as well as I do that this is nonsense.

the great St. Agustine put perfectly:

We are predestined. But since we don't know how, we are free. This is something that even Stephen Hawking agrees with. He has also spoken about predestination with the same conclusion.

As Brian said: this is kind of freaky.

"How on earth do you get up in the morning?"

Because I so. Because I will.

Or perhaps because, intellectually depressing as predetermination is, its something that few are able to properly act on the practical implications of. It seems to be a limitation in human thought.

I dont think there is any plan by God. Or any plan at all. Things just happen. They dont need a reason.

1. God knows all things, including those who will be saved (THE ELECT). 2. God's foreknowledge does not destroy, but includes, free will. 3. God desires all men to be saved. 4. Jesus died to redeem all men. 5. God provides sufficient grace for all men to be saved. 6. Man, in the exercise of his free will, can accept or reject grace. 7. Those who accept grace are saved, or born-again. 8. Those who are born-again can fall away or fall into sin. 9. Not everyone who is saved will persevere in grace. 10. Those who do persevere are God's elect. 11. Those who do not persevere, or who never accepted grace, are the reprobate. 12. Since we can always reject God in this life, we have no absolute assurance that we will persevere. 13. We can have a moral assurance of salvation if we maintain faith and keep God's commandments (1 John 2:1-6; 3:19-23; 5:1-3,13).

IMPORTANT DISTINCTIONS

1. Predestination is not predetermination :

"Predestination is nothing else than the foreknowledge and foreordaining of those gracious gifts which make certain the salvation of all who are saved." (St. Augustine, Persever 14:35)

Predestination is God's decree of the happiness of the elect. God's infallible foreknowledge (and thus predestination also) includes free will. God's foreknowledge cannot force upon man unavoidable coercion, for the simple reason that it is at bottom nothing else than the eternal vision of the future historical actuality. God foresees the free activity of a man precisely as that individual is willing to shape it, predestination is not predetermination of the human will.

2. Election is a consequence of God's foreknowledge :

By definition, the ELECT are those whom God infallibly foresees will be saved (Rom 8:28-30). By this definition, it is impossible for the elect to be lost, precisely because God foreknows who will not be lost. But since election depends on God's infallible foreknowledge, we simply have no way of knowing whether or not we are in that category -- God knows with certainty His elect, but we do not. The elect are predestined in the sense that God knows them, and enables them by grace, to be saved.

3. Free will can resist and reject God's grace :

"You stiff-necked people...you always resist the Holy Spirit" (Acts 7:51). The angels possessed grace and perfectly intact intellect, and yet many of them freely sinned and rejected God. Adam and Eve possessed grace and a perfectly intact nature, and yet they freely sinned. How much more so is it possible for the born-again Christian, who possesses grace but also a wounded nature and a darkened intellect, to sin also. Paul mentions sins which keep a man from the Kingdom of God: fornication, adultery, homosexuality, theft, greed, and so on (1 Cor 6:9-10).

When Jesus was expressly asked what one must do to gain eternal life, he answered, "keep the commandments," and went on to list the moral commandments of the Decalogue (Matt 19:16-21). Revelation describes those whose lot is the burning pool of fire and sulfur, the second death: "cowards, the unfaithful, the depraved, murderers, the unchaste" and so on (Rev 21:8). Aren't born-again Christians capable of these sins? And if they die in these sins, how can they possibly inherit heaven? If Adam and Eve could fall from grace, surely we can fall from grace as well. Surely we can harden our hearts and resist the Holy Spirit.

4. We cannot confuse Election with being "Born Again" :

The set of those who are "born again" (in Catholic and historic Christian understanding those who have been regenerated "of water and Spirit" in the Sacrament of Baptism -- John 3:3,5; Acts 2:38) is not necessarily co-extensive with the set of those who will persevere and gain eternal life. Born-again Christians can and (sadly) do fall away. Otherwise free will and (mortal) sin are merely fictitious for a Christian during this life of testing and pilgrimage. Otherwise all the language in Scripture of persevering to the end in order to be saved (cf. Matt 10:22; 24:13; Phil 2:12-13) makes no sense.
MICKY - http://micky-clontarf.blogspot.com/

I, MICKY, AM A GIFT TO ALL PEOPLE.

I don't believe in atheists. I haven't seen any evidence that they exist.

I have recently published a mystery novel called Sins of the Father, based on the idea of predestination but not necessarily from a religious point of view. The story concerns two young men living in the same village whose paths were doomed to cross even before they were born. This eventually happens with devastating results for all concerned. On a personal level I am intrigued by the notion of predestination whether by our genes or other influences. does this mean I am a closet Christian or just another befuddled fool?

Harry,

Predestination is a fascinating topic. It doesn't make sense.

We want our freedom. Yet, we have none. Movies and fiction make great avenues to work through our fears and deceptions and - to an extend - root for the little guy.

You might be indeed a budding Christian philosopher in the making.

You might be a calvinist one day!

i beleive that we do have free will.

however, i beleive that God alredy knows what choices we will make, but we still made them, he didnt choose.

Although, having thought about it, i still beleive God can give us the choices, and can give us opportunities as he wishes, but we still choose whether to take them or not.

Yeah, I think this is the orthodox view. We still make the choices but the selection is given.

It's an interesting topic all around.