This is both hilarious and amazing. I am both sad and delighted to inform you that these beliefs are rubbish, owing to the meaninglessness of scripture, alas, it's just old books, and there's more old books in the world than there are coconuts, and much less use they are too. The good news however, is that there is no "god" up there, us humans are FREE and happy, loving people. All the best!
Tom

Tom, thanks for your comment. "Humans are free and happy, loving people"? How do you reach that conclusion?

Hi Dan! That's certainly my experience. If you doubt that humans who are free are also happy and loving, get to know some pre-school children. It's important that they should be pre-school, as schooling is the process that our society imposes in order to remove freedom, and therefore happiness, and part of the capacity to love.
But we are born OK and if we are very lucky, we can stay that way...
Cheers!
Tom

And yet often that joy and "free spirit" that you allude to being examined in young ones, before they enter the "freedom/love draining societal structure called school," is only present when there is order imposed on the group from the outside. Otherwise the young ones can quickly spiral down into the same squabbles that plague the adults. Jealousy, greed, (my toy) anger, revenge, violence (don't hit your sister Andrew).

There can only be a respecting of rights and freedom within some sort of order.

With that said, I agree with you Tom about "Humans are free and happy, loving people." If you just stop and watch, enter into relationships, you can see it in practice. All despite their schooling, where they learn to be so much more than mere children.

I agree with Henry. Babies fight over toys and hit each other long before school. e.g., what makes my baby happy is taking a toy from another baby, who then becomes sad.

Happiness and love to one baby is sadness and hate to another. The concepts themselves make no sense outside of a transcendent being who defines them.

Happiness and love to one baby is sadness and hate to another. The concepts themselves make no sense outside of a transcendent being who defines them.

If that were actually the case, surely only those embracing the "right" religion would be plugged into this source of goodness?

Yet we see the exact opposite, the societies that are the least religious have correlate with lower incidences of crime, STD's and societal dysfuncion. This plays out not just globally, but even among US states. Food for thought:-)

Maybe a Tic-Tac.

"If that were actually the case, surely only those embracing the "right" religion would be plugged into this source of goodness?"

I was posing a hypothetical example. One baby's happiness depends upon taking a toy from another baby. The other baby is sad when the toy is taken. The action of stealing a toy from another can be labelled neither good nor bad. The action simply is. Without an outside moral lawgiver, the concepts of good/bad are subjective nonsense. There is no reason followers of a particular religion would necessarily have exclusive knowledge of these concepts.

"Yet we see the exact opposite, the societies that are the least religious have correlate with lower incidences of crime, STD's and societal dysfuncion. This plays out not just globally, but even among US states."

Prove it, please. In addition, explain why low crime, STDs and dysfunction are desirable, or good, outcomes. Sociopaths could just as easily claim that high crime is preferable and good for them.

Prove it, please.
Oh the irony. Here yah go.
http://www.secularhumanism.org/index.php?section=library&page=pzuckerman_26_5


In addition, explain why low crime, STDs and dysfunction are desirable, or good, outcomes. Sociopaths could just as easily claim that high crime is preferable and good for them.

Let me cut you off the pass here. Morality is simply what a given group of humans say it is. However, we are biologically and socially disposed to the application of the golden rule, because this is what has produced coherent and stable societies. So there is baseline behaviour, and we see this documented by anthropologists the world over, but it's genes, not magic.

In addition "morality" is observable in many mammals and primates, thus it clearly has absolutely nothing to do with a primary transcendent lawgiver, unless that lawgiver looks like a chimp or a dolphin, after all, retorviral checkmarks in their DNA prove they evolved first. This is the observable reality, not vague speculation about some poorly defined transcendent "law".

Finally, the relentless history of schism in the christian tradition, and religion generally, are surely a clear warning bell that these institutions are not now, and never have been a conduit for anything approaching an internally consistent body of truth.

Do yourself a favour Dan, do us all a favour, dump christianity. It is destroying America.

Also this might help to counteract some of the sillier claims of Biblical inerrancy.

http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/

Brian,

You should probably lay off the egg nog. Your links are good for laughs, but they are the same old reruns, like so many Charlie Brown Christmas specials. The article conveniently finds those countries with statistics the author likes (forcing his morality on us), then proclaims those countries "atheist". Eureka! The author also erects religous straw men. Let's look at one glaring example.

"Furthermore, fundamentalists agree that, when large numbers of people in a society reject God or fail to make him the center of their lives, societal disintegration is sure to follow. Every societal ill-whether crime, poverty, poor public education, or AIDS-is thus blamed on a lack of piety. A most disconcerting example of this worldview was expressed in the immediate aftermath of September 11, 2001, when Jerry Falwell blamed the terrorists attacks on America's "throwing God out of the public square," further adding that "when a nation deserts God and expels God from the culture . . . the result is not good.""

Here the author fails to define "fundamentalists" and fails to include fundamentalist atheists. Then he claims every societal ill (again, forcing his definition of "societal ill" on the rest of us) is blamed on a lack of piety. Of course, celebrity atheists blame everything on religion. They write entire books on the theme. Finally, the author holds up Jerry Falwell as somehow representative of fundamentalism! Let's call Stalin representative of atheism while we're at it.

Thanks for demonstrating the intellectual bankruptcy of atheism, and Merry Christmas!

The article conveniently finds those countries with statistics the author likes (forcing his morality on us), then proclaims those countries "atheist".

Oh this a bit weak. Surely you've been beaten senseless with European stats on this subject? Especially the nordic countries. If not, you really need to move in better informed circles:-) There have been a number of peer reviewed studies on the subject, this article alone references several of them. Facts are akward but it's dishonest to simply dismiss them because they conflict with your world view.
Here the author fails to define "fundamentalists"

Another weak but wordy criticism. It's a summary, not a scientific paper. Those are listed in the sources at the bottom.

Start here :
http://moses.creighton.edu/jrs/2005/2005-11.html

http://www.apologetics.com/default.jsp?bodycontent=/articles/theistic_apologetics/kreeft-arguments.html

Your turn.

Dan, still working on that link:-) Nothing new (so far), but it's nicely put together.

I'll try and respond in a few days.

Merry Christmas!!!

You can move everything to the other comment thread. I don't want to spread you too thin considering its one on three here :)

The ultimate truth about Bible is that:
1. JesusYeshuaIssa did not leave the Word of God or anything in writing revealed on him from GodAllahYHWH in the form of stone tablets as was in the case of Moses.
2. Or anything written by JesusYeshuaIssa himself as a biography when he left from Galilee, after the incident of Crucifixion, alongwith his mother Mary in search of the lost ten tribes of the house of Israel, he died natural and peaceful death in Kashmir, India.
3. Jesus left nothing behind authenticated by him, in possession of the Church, as there was none in existence.
4. We do respect the NTGospels which have account of Jesus life, but it does not have much utility for a non-Catholic except that we may treat it as a book of history subject to scrutiny, internal as well as external, for each bit of event for finding truth in it on merit.

120+ writers

There are about 120+ writers who wrote a sort of history books about the time of Jesus, that could be logically accepted as a historical source and truth could be searched out of it like we do from other sources of history on merit of each bit of event unbiased. All these 120+ books must be treated at par but unfortunately some have been selected by the clergy and are known as NTBible while others have been discarded. This shows their bias. The historians should come forward and sift the material for truth, if found, on equal footing from all of these 120+ books, with reason, rationality and valid arguments acceptable to the whole world, as these are claimed to be Universal by our Protestant/Catholic friends.
I respect your religion but I think I could form my own opinion freely. My Christian friends may remain steadfast on what they believe, no compulsion, and that is their right.

Thanks

I am an Ahmadi peaceful Muslim

It is unfortunate that your buddy Uthman decided to burn all the alternate versions of the Quran, or we could be studying those. That's scholarship for ya!

Hi dan!

So in other words you accept that you don't have anything sure from Jesus. There is no Word of God with the Christians; only words of anonymous writers declared by the deviant Paul as "inspired" for his own vested ends.

I love Jesus, Mary and Muhammad

Thanks

I am an Ahmadi peaceful Muslim

http://paarsurrey.wordpress.com

As opposed to the anonymously written Quran written, composed and edited hundreds of years after the life of Jesus? On the contrary, I'll take the Injil accounts that Muhammad seemed to think were just fine, but failed to understand properly.

What's Ahmadi mean?

Who are the Ahmadi Muslims and what do they
believe?

The Ahmadiyya Muslim Community was founded in 1889 by Hadhrat Mirza Ghulam Ahmad who claimed under divine instruction to fulfil the major prophecies contained in Islamic and other sacred texts regarding a world reformer who would unite humanity. He announced to Christians awaiting the second coming of Jesus, Muslims anticipating the Mahdi, Hindus expecting Krishna and Buddhists searching for Buddha, that he was the promised Prophet for them all, commissioned by God to rejuvenate true faith and lead a spiritual struggle against evil.

He also reaffirmed that Islam was the final law for humanity revealed to the Prophet Muhammad, and that true essence of Islam had become lost through the centuries which needed reviving in these times. This is why the Ahmadi Muslims also see themselves as leading the renaissance of Islam.

How many Ahmadi Muslims are there, and where are they based?

The Ahmadiyya Muslim Community has tens of millions members in 190 countries with most followers living in the Indian subcontinent and Africa. It emerged from the Sunni tradition of Islam and remains the fastest growing denomination within the faith. The Ahmadi Muslims were among the earliest Muslim communities to arrive in Britain, building London’s first mosque in Putney in 1924. They also opened Western Europe’s largest mosque, Baitul Futuh, in Morden, Surrey, in 2003. Currently in Britain there are 18,000 Ahmadi Muslims.

What do Ahmadi Muslims believe?
The Ahmadi Muslims believe in all the five pillars and articles of faith required of Muslims. They differ from other Muslims mainly with respect to the status of their founder, Hadhrat Mirza Ghulam Ahmad, as a Prophet within Islam, and their view that Jesus survived the attempted crucifixion, traveled in search of the remaining lost tribes in the East and died in India. They believe that Jesus is buried in Kashmir.

Ahmadi Muslims also believe in the continuation of divine revelation. This applies primarily to the Khalifas whose authority derives from God Himself. Ahmadi Muslims live by a code of peace epitomised by the community’s motto "Love for All, Hatred for None". From their origins they inculcated the meaning of Jihad as striving to free oneself of impurities for the pleasure of God. They have condemned all violence in the strongest possible terms, and have
nurtured a spirit of allegiance to the country in which they reside.

Waqar Ahmad Ahmedi gives a brief
introduction to the Ahmadi branch of Islam
http://www.alislam.org/topics/khilafat/khilafat-news-coverage.pdf

Hi

I want to become a member of the http://www.thechristianalert.org/

What should I do? Please guide me.

Thanks

Thanks for the Ahmadi info.