Hi every body ........ Peace be upon all of you , This Huda ( female ) , I'm one of the moslems .

I read some of your paragraphs about point of view on Islam and answering islam ..... I realy appreciate your loving to your religion .... that's realy a good and logic human behaviour , but let me ask you a question ..... if you have a logic fact , its logic to believe in it ....... and if you have more logic fact of course you will believe in it more ....... so once you have the most logic fact ..... it's not logic to not believe in it ..... makes sense .

So ....... it's not the matter of there is a true religion and a false one ...... all of them are true and have the same aim , but in different time with different people .

So ........ the question here will be ... what's the difference if they are all of the same aim .... the answer is ... there is no difference except in the time as i said ... and the second ... is in the people ... and here is the point ....... Eisa ( Jesus ) was sent to a little group of people to inform them there is a god responsible for them and manage their life .... and that's a logic concept ..... but referring to messenger mohamed .... he also was sent to the people with the same concept but the difference is ... every messenger before mohammed .. sent to a definit group of people ... but after increasing of the people's thoughts about each religion and each messenger ... it was must to put a base line to all the people anywhere ..anytime .. and with the same concept ... and that's the point ... that messenger mohammed sent to all the people not to definit group but still with the same concept ... so what's the matter now of believing on ISLAM .

And now .... how do think about ISLAM and is it false ?

I hpoe that little words illustrate you some of the logic thinking about some of the facts in our life .

Please send me your openion soon .... and if you have any issues or questions about ISLAM send me soon ... I'd love to recieve your comments .

Thank you for your time .

Huda, thanks for your comments.

You have made a truth claim:

"So ....... it's not the matter of there is a true religion and a false one ...... all of them are true and have the same aim , but in different time with different people ."

Please provide evidence that God is both triune (Christianity) and singular (Islam), personal and nonpersonal, infinite and finite, existent and nonexistent.

If God changes as successive revelations are given, please explain why you are not a Mormon.

Hi Dan …. Thank you for answer .

First of all , I appreciate your acceptance to think by logic .

Regarding to your word " Provide evidence that GOD is both triune ( Christianity ) and singular ( Islam ) , personal and non personal , infinite and finite , existent and non existent " .

First of all to say a word of " GOD " , you must describe a one who is living forever ( to can create through out the whole life ) , who is never die ( to can accept the people in the next world ) , who has a capabilities exceed the ones of the people ( to control and manage them , to can give graces and solve problems when we need him , or to control the life in general ) , and who is singular (to not differ in opinion with his partner(s) which may affect the normal life of the people and creatures).

That's in general the logic definition of "God " as a word.

So…. Regarding to Islam ….. The God says that he is singular , you can depend on him in case of your worst problems , he was not born and never give birth , and no one resembles him .

And that obeys the logic by all the means .

So….. God is singular …. He is not a person , he is a God …. He is infinite …. and existent .

If you need further evidences , please illustrate what are the kinds of those evidences ?

Regarding to Jesus as a God for you …. I don't know how did you get that he is a God …. So could you illustrate how he is a God ?

And If we consider that Your concept is the truth ….. How for a God …. Who creates , controls his creatures , and manage the life , to permit some of people he created to torture and crucify him .

But Jesus in Islam …… He is the prophet ESA …. He is a person , he was born of his mother the virgin Maryam , he can't create or accept people in the next world …. But he did have and didn't have extra capabilities through out his life with his nation :-

He did have extra capabilities : cause when God sent him to his nation , prophet Esa had to have some extra characters ( by help of God ) to convince his nation that he was sent by God to them to change their life to the better .

He didn't have extra capabilities …. Cause as I said before , he can't create , he can't accept people in the next world , he can't give graces and he can't control people and life …. Cause finally he is a human being but better than the ordinary people in thinking honestly in God .

This is simply prophet Esa .

Regarding to your word " If God changes as a successive revelations are given , please explain why you are not a Mormon " .

God was not changed , he is a one , but prophets who were changed from nation to nation .

Mormonism as I know , it's an american religious sect established by Joseph Smith in 1830 , and that sect allowed the man to have more than one wife then it prevented that again .
Islam is not allowed the man to have more than more one wife except in the hard conditions and that's for the benefits of the whole family .

More info. about Islam :

Islam is represented by : Allah (the God) , Prophet Mohammed (God's messenger) , and Quraan (guide book) .

Quraan was sent to us by Prophet Mohamed from over than 1400 years ago , that book is dealing with religious , social , scientific points and many others .

Regarding to the scientific points , these are the most valuable points to you as a non Moslems, cause science is a common factor between nations and accepted by minds ( no emotions , no imaginations , and no religious intermixing ) , so this is the most important evidence to a lot of non Moslem scientists or even ordinary people to believe that Islam is not a false religion ….. so if you gonna search the Quraan for a lot of scientific facts , you gonna find the most important and accurate scientific phenomena in our life now , Quraan mentioned them from over than 1400 years ago before any scientist or discoverers discovered them . If you can read and Understand Arabic , I can provide you those Ayat ( Parts of Quraan ) .

If you are still in your believe that Islam is a False religion , send me your inquiries or any further explanation you need , plus could you provide me evidences that Jesus is a God .

Finally ….. I hope these little words be able to clarify the idea about our Islam .

Thank you for your time .

Quran claims that Torah, and Bible were certainly revealed to Moses, and Jesus respectively. Quran also mentions clearly that what was revealed, most of that was twisted and corrupted by religious figures. What you have now is 'fabricated and twisted with some basic truth still in it'. I see no contradiction in these statements. Quran says that Thier (Christian and Jewish faiths) religious figures change things in thier faith like they have permission from God. Example is allowing homosexuals for political reasons into church or cconsidering them to be as godo Christians as any others...another example that actually Quran mentions is that "they 9christians) added thier own idea(innovation) of celebacy into thier faith which God did not command for, yet they could not live upto this" you see today tht celebacy is not natural and how religious figures violate it....

Quran claims that Torah, and Bible were certainly revealed to Moses, and Jesus respectively. Quran also mentions clearly that what was revealed, most of that was twisted and corrupted by religious figures. What you have now is 'fabricated and twisted with some basic truth still in it'. I see no contradiction in these statements. Quran says that Thier (Christian and Jewish faiths) religious figures change things in thier faith like they have permission from God. Example is allowing homosexuals for political reasons into church or cconsidering them to be as godo Christians as any others...another example that actually Quran mentions is that "they 9christians) added thier own idea(innovation) of celebacy into thier faith which God did not command for, yet they could not live upto this" you see today tht celebacy is not natural and how religious figures violate it....

Interesting to note that Uthman had to round up and burn alternate copies of the Quran, and he wasn't enitrely successful. Who knows if we have the words of the original? Or if there even was an original? Also, the things you cited are not changes in the Bible. They are changes in interpretations of the Bible, so you have not supported your point. Biblical skeptics have yet to produce an "unmodified" version of the Bible, and thus cannot support the claim that it has been changed.

Dan,
Do you have a bible written in its original language, language of Jesus, written under his guidance in his lifetime? Uthman simply burned copies that individuals had written. Not that they incorrect, but he did not want to take a chance. Thus he replaced all individually written partial copies with the one companions together approved. no such thing could be said about bible.

Another point, if you pick up Quran, open any page and read, you will see that 'someone' is talking to Muhammad or all humanity or others. That someone is God. Whereas, ib bible, it contains sayings of Jesus, his companions, historians, and others. Sayings of Muhammad are NOT part of Quran, they are compiled separately. Similarly, sayings of his companions are compiled separately. do you not see this? and please I do not want anyone to be offended with this. I am at least as concenred with my feloow human beings' well being in the hereafter as they might be for mine.

Dan,
I notice that you are saying:"since skeptics have not been able to find original Bible that is unmodified, they can not compare with that any version that exists today to claim that 'see, this bible has changed'. " am I right?

This amazed me. Do you think you should be smiling at skeptics that there exists no original Bible? Do you not think that you can not tell me what original is being interpreted today?

I would like to discuss and not argue with you but directly with you either over the phone or direct emails. If you do not mind, please contact me at irfan1@hotmail.

Hi Dan , welcome back it's very long time i didn't get your comment , but for all thanks , and here is my answer :

If we gonna think with your concept , that no one knows is that Quraan is right or wrong or there even was a Quraan ? , we have to think that , is your bible is right or wrong as well , and that no one knows is it true or not or is it unmodified or not , and if you gonna think about each fact in that life in that way .... is it true or not or is it present or not .... it's gonna drive you to be mad .

But , to think with a normal mind , you should use your own logic and it is not only for your believing in religion , but for all the life matters u have .

Concerning to our point , the religion .... you are as a non moslem , you can not believe in something you are not convensed with , and here is my point , just use your own logic . I supported my point before by giving you a mentally acceptable facts about our believing in a The God as a god and as a word . For your point , just provide me with a logic explanation for a God as even a word , and how did you get that Jesus is a God , and if he is , how for a God to allow some people he created to torture and crucify him , then he died , or how for a God to be dead ?

I've something for you Dan , it's actually an Islamic concept but for you , you take it as a psycological fact ... or you can take it as an advice , that thing is " to get rid off a bad idea or a devil or something like that , do one of two or may be both : first do it by patience , second do it by believing in the truth " .

Thank you for your time .

Thanks for returning Huda.

how did you get that Jesus is a God , and if he is , how for a God to allow some people he created to torture and crucify him , then he died , or how for a God to be dead ?

The Injil that Mohammed accepted demonstrate that Isa claimed to be God. The Quran states the Jesus is a sinless prophet. Wouldn't it be strange for Isa to claim to be God if he's not? Was he crazy?

Hi Dan .... it's too fast , which is very good .

Regarding to your answer for " How did you get that jesus is a God ? " , you provided me with two evidences :

First , " The Injil states that Mohammed accepted demonstrate that Isa claimed to be God " : it didn't happen , prophet Mohamed never accepted that prophet Isa or any other prophet is a God .
And we don't have any thing in our Quraan states that prophet Mohamed believed in something like that as well .

Second , " The Quran states the Jesus is a sinless prophet " : which is completely right .... but you know what .... all the prophets are sinless , moreover , all the angels are sinless too , but it doesn't mean that they are or at least one of them is the God , ther are just a sinless prophets and angels to be an ideal examples for us and to be followed , just to improve ourselves to the best .

But regarding to my part which is " if jesus is the God , how for a God to allow some people he created to torture and crucify him , then he died , or how for a God to be dead ? " you didn't provide me with your answer for that yet .

Thanks for your time .

But regarding to my part which is " if jesus is the God , how for a God to allow some people he created to torture and crucify him , then he died , or how for a God to be dead ? "

Why not? Can't God do anything? As far as God being dead, you have to understand that in the Incarnation, Isa took on a human nature in addition to his divine nature. The Word became flesh. I don't see why God couldn't do this, but you seem to be limiting God to what he can't do.

First , " The Injil states that Mohammed accepted demonstrate that Isa claimed to be God " : it didn't happen , prophet Mohamed never accepted that prophet Isa or any other prophet is a God . And we don't have any thing in our Quraan states that prophet Mohamed believed in something like that as well

I didn't state Mohammed accepted Isa as God. I am stating that Mohammed accepted the Gospels, which clearly demonstrate that Isa both claimed to be and proved he was God. Mohammed simply didn't understand biblical Christianity.

all the prophets are sinless

This is the first time I have heard this. Do you have the cite from the Quran or elsewhere? Thanks for your reply.

All prophets are equal: Here is a verse from chapter 2:
136. Say ye: "We believe in Allah, and the revelation given to us, and to Abraham, Isma'il, Isaac, Jacob, and the Tribes, and that given to Moses and Jesus, and that given to (all) prophets from their Lord: We make no difference between one and another of them: And we bow to Allah (in Islam)."

I will post later about all prophets being innocent or in arabic: Masoom un'al Khata...meaning they 'mistakes' are not with intentions and are with a purpose. Then I will also explain (some christian friends asked me) how come Moses killed a man?

Well, a Hindu friend of mine was talking to a Christian friend and he aruges: why not 25 million gods? if three is ok and you can put forth arguments, the same goes for 25 million. Then I intervened and said " so, either God is one or no limit".

Why can't God kill himself? tell me why could not he just forgive original sin? actually we should talk about the concept of Original sin because that what becomes basis for a sacrifice.....

Why can't God kill himself? tell me why could not he just forgive original sin?

God can't kill himself because it's a sin, and God doesn't sin. Or, if you like, God can't cease to exist becuase He wouldn't be God if he could.

God could not forgive original sin because God is justice, and justice must be carried out. Hence, a sacrifice was necessary. Jesus, the perfect sacrifice, satisfied God's justice. All you have to do is accept that sacrifice for forgiveness of your sins.

Please don't think I'm taking side with either Allah or Jesus here, it just happens that your post is a little more coherent than the "opposing side"'s :-)

God can't kill himself because it's a sin, and God doesn't sin.

Thats a tautology. Yahweh, Allah or God, whatever you want to call it, in your belief system can do whatever it wants, and is by definition sinless. It could murder an innocent and it would not be sin, as sin is something which goes against the will of God, right?

God could not forgive original sin because God is justice, and justice must be carried out. Hence, a sacrifice was necessary. Jesus, the perfect sacrifice, satisfied God's justice. All you have to do is accept that sacrifice for forgiveness of your sins.

God caused original sin, or is at least responsible for it happening (being unable to sin itself), so why would it need to to sacrifice itself in order appease it's own sense of justice for something it did? Seems a little irrational to me.
Don't forget your God(s) are also love and good, though it does love the odd bit of genocide and infanticide. I guess that's it's jealous and wrathful side coming out :-)

As for Mohammed endorsing the revelations of Jesus, surely a simple solution to that, within the context of the story, is Jesus's message was "pure" yet was corrupted when it was set down, hence the dictation of Allah's word to Mohammed, through Gabriel to avoid scribal error. Makes as much sense as most of the rationalisations I've heard :-)

Quraan mentioned them from over than 1400 years ago before any scientist or discoverers discovered them . If you can read and Understand Arabic , I can provide you those Ayat ( Parts of Quraan )

Please do provide the "scientific discoveries" in the Quran. Book and verse will do, as I don't read arabic.
Instead of providing it, you can take back the statement. I'm cure it will be easier for me (time wise) and you (psychologically) to take this route, but hey it's always good to learn new things, right :-)

Yahweh, Allah or God, whatever you want to call it, in your belief system can do whatever it wants,

No. God can only do possible things. God can't make a square circle, for example.

No. God can only do possible things. God can't make a square circle, for example.

So Yahweh couldn't create some kind of logic or reality where this was possible?
Sure a square circle is a logical no-no for us and the logic we've formulated, but this is an omnipotent, omniscient being here.
If you're going to limit Yahweh, why stop with square circle. I mean, Yahweh breaks the laws of physics all the time, why not logic as well? Seems that should also be easy for an immaterial, timeless omni-everything being.

You think Huda is likely to return with the great scientific achievements of the Quran? :-)

Note: I am in this discussion not to insult anyone. If it seems like that at any point, I apologize in advance.

Now, do Christians take those who crucified Jesus as innocent people for they were merely carrying out a justice plan by God...He had to sacrifice himself before forgiving original sin?

Dan, islam is not a new faith to us. It started with Adam. The deviations from that Islam took other names. With Muhammad, that original Islam was revived. Those who listened to Muhammad were either pagans or Christians or Jews who then formed first Muslim community. So, we are from you guys :-) and I honestly think you look into Islam with sincerety...will continue. Good to 'talk' to you, though!

ifran and Huda,

I want to thank you for continuing the dialogue. Our intent is also not to insult anyone but to debate the issues openly and honestly - respectfully.

Edgar

Quran 3:161

"No prophet could (ever) be false to his trust. If any person is so false, He shall, on the Day of Judgment, restore what he misappropriated; then shall every soul receive its due, - whatever it earned, - and none shall be dealt with unjustly."

Adam's mistake is called a 'slip' an unintentional mistake and was a warning to all of us (management by example :-))

Quran says he slipped, then realized and asked for forgiveness and was forgiven. No blame to Eve here...thus we also do not believe in original sin.

irfan, you say you don't believe in original sin, but it seems you believe in a literal Adam and Eve?

How do you reconcile that belief with the evidence that shows it cannot be literal, and is simply a story made up by ancient peoples?

Havok,
This particular story has always been told be every prophet...many of whom never met each other and were known in the community to be honest and trust worthy all thier lives. Corruption in thier teachings made faiths unreliable and causd masses to go away from faith. Now they think these are all tales...

Just yesterday in Chicago I met three women who accepted Islam some time ago. Two blak and one white from Wisconsin. They all said one thing: Trinity was always difficult to understand and a confusion. As soon as they got the idea of oneness of God, all other things fell in place.

It is a gift of deviations from Islam or try faith preached by all prophets that has caused people to look upon the word of God as fairy tales...

To your question, :
- all prophets mentioned this story
- most of them never met each other
- they were reliable, trust worthy people
- Thier miracles and lives and teachings are evidences to thier truthfulness

If you bring a person from a village of Pakistan or africa's poorest country, that person will be shocked to see street light. He will not understand that their is actually a network of cables and wires underground that he does not see and that it is all attached to a power station which gnerates electricity.

But if one after another person(prophet) comes and keeps saying the same thing, why not you accept? after all, over 100k prophets all agreed to it while those who do not agree with them, have all differed from each other...I guess too short a time to explain..

That is a THEORY not an EVIDENCE...

what evidence there is that Adam and may be other prophets were all made up stories? Quran mentions that there are people they do not accept faith rather say these are old stories...there will always be some...in this discussion, we are accepting this as a fact that we all beleive in prophets, angels etc...otherwise I would be joinig a discussion in some athiest forum..

So Adam made a "mistake", but it wasn't a sin? Is that because his choice wasn't intentional?

How about all the other prophets and their sins? David's infidelity and murder? Solomon's many wives? Buddha abandoning his family? With 10,000 prophets, there must be at least one sin in there somewhere...

Dan, EI, when I post a comment, I get the following error:
Fatal error: Call to a member function on a non-object in /home/esanchez/domains/thechristianalert.org/public_html/inc/_core/_param.funcs.php on line 1756

To your question, :
- all prophets mentioned this story

Which prophets?
Those for Allah?
How about Hindu holy men - Krishna?
I don't remember there being "Adam & Eve" in Norse or Greek mythology, or in any eastern religion I've ever heard of - it only appears in those derived of the Abrahamic tradition.

most of them never met each other

They shared a cultural tradition and a book of stories.

- they were reliable, trust worthy people

How do you know that? Why does that have anything to do with the truth of their beliefs? Newton was not very nice, by all accounts, yet his laws of gravitation were very good.

- Thier miracles and lives and teachings are evidences to thier truthfulness

How is someones life an indication of their truthfullness? Jesus is claimed to have lead a perfect life, and also have claimed divinity, so I guess you'll become a christian now?
The buddha lead a great life too, and his teachings have touched millions of lives. I assume you accept Buddhism as true?
How about hinduism? It also contains miracles. Krishna was also a pretty nice guy. You'll accept Hinduism now as well?

That is a THEORY not an EVIDENCE...

Ok, you're confused.
The scientific use of the word "theory" is different to the layman use. In science a theory is a logically self-consistent model or framework for describing the behavior of a related set of natural or social phenomena. It is testable and falsifiable.
The THEORY of evolution explains the EVIDENCE which has been found, and does so simply and accurately. It has been standing for the last 150 years, and been able to incorporate increases in our knowledge - DNA etc.
You may "believe" the theory is wrong, which is your choice, but you should probably understand it before you try to dismiss it.
Do you have any evidence which shows the theory of evolution to be wrong? And by evidence I don't mean "my holy book disagrees".

what evidence there is that Adam and may be other prophets were all made up stories?

There is physical evidence which points to a long history of evolution of species, not special creation. There is evidence that the universe is ~14 billion years old. There is evidence that the Earth is ~4.7 billion years old.
The lack of evidence SUPPORTING your view, while not proof of it's falsehood, is certainly telling.
What evidence do you have which points towards an actual adam & eve?

Quran mentions that there are people they do not accept faith rather say these are old stories...there will always be some...

It also mentions that non-believers are in league with Satan, and that they'll try to tempt you with lies, and so not to listen to them. It's an easy way to ignore any contrary arguments - kind of like sticking your fingers in your ears and yelling "I'm not listening, I can't hear you!".

in this discussion, we are accepting this as a fact that we all beleive in prophets, angels etc...otherwise I would be joinig a discussion in some athiest forum..

When did we agree that "prophets, angels" were fact? Nothing in the original post has asked to assume that. When discussing reality, why would you assume that?

"Now let man but think from what he is created! He is created from a drop emitted-Proceeding from between the backbone and the ribs," (Qur'an 86:5-7).
Seems Allah knows less about human anatomy than we apes.
See http://www.carm.org/islam/sperm.htm for a more info.

If the "knowledge" of anatomy above is any indication, forgive me if I'm underwhelmed by Allah and the great scientific achievements in the Quran.

Sorry about the number of comments. The error I indicated above seems to have been caused by the length of the text.

Havok,
wow...
simply- unintentional mistake is not a sin.

with faith based stuff, you are not going to find written history with evidence to prove or disprove things. However, on one hand you have Adam to Muhammad prophets who claim one thing and on the other hand you have people saying other things. you have to find out if you should rely on one or the other. Looking at how Quran was revealed, recorded, saved, memorized and preserved until today along with every detail of Muhammad's life, is enough for me to rely on what Quran says.

The sins you mentioned by other prophets are denied in Quran. Those are corrupted stories in other books. Corrupted by those who mislead followers of those prophets...and in case of multiple wives, it is not a crime or sin. Just because today you believe multiple wives is a problem, does not mean it is indeed a sin in the sight of God. God always allowed it. (islam is the only faith that restriced it tofour with conditions).

Yes, I am talking about ABRAHAMIC faiths. Just because they go back to one person , it does not mean that his family kept passing on the info so it happens that all of the subsequent prophets had things in common....this link was broken many times...i wish i could type like you do...

with faith based stuff, you are not going to find written history with evidence to prove or disprove things.

Then that is a problem. If something can't be tested, how do you know it is valid?

Looking at how Quran was revealed, recorded, saved, memorized and preserved until today along with every detail of Muhammad's life, is enough for me to rely on what Quran says.

So you assume that the quran is correct on the basis that the quran claims to be correct? You know the Christians claim the same status for their holy book. How can I tell which one is right? And simple claims of "corruption" of one or the other don't count. I need EVIDENCE that one of them is true. In the absence of that, I'll stick with believing in neither.

The sins you mentioned by other prophets are denied in Quran.

Again were back to the quran being "true" with no backup evidence.

Just because today you believe multiple wives is a problem, does not mean it is indeed a sin in the sight of God. God always allowed it.

I don't have a problem with it, nor multiple husbands. I don't believe either is a "sin", as, in the absence of a belief in any God, I don't really subscribe to the notion of sin. Multiple partners doesn't seem to work too well in practice, because human beings become jealous.

Yes, I am talking about ABRAHAMIC faiths.

Why limit yourself to those? Why not consider Hinduism or Buddhism or Shinto? Why not pray to Zeus or Odin?

this link was broken many times...i wish i could type like you do...

What do you mean the link was broken may times? The Hebrew bible was first written down after 1000BCE (around 600 or 800 BCE I think). Prior to that it was an oral tradition. After that the Hebrew bible was never lost from the Israelites, so all prophets would have had access to it, including Mohammed. Where is this "broken" link?

You haven't addressed a couple of questions:
Where is your evidence for the existence of a literal adma & eve, when all of the empirical evidence points towards common descent from a shared ancestor species (theory of evolution)?
How can the quran be deemed innerant and perfect when it gets simple human anatomy incorrect (sperm emanating from the spine)?

http://www.infidels.org/library/historical/w_k_clifford/ethics_of_belief.html
The above is an interesting essay on belief. It uses Mohammed as an example of why we should question and discard some claims.
Have a read and let me know what you think.

*hat tip to Havok*
You've got a lot more patience that I do. Just reading all the circular logic, unprovable tenets and the drinking deep of the koolaid, has made my eyes cross. You know what saddens me the most Havok? I have a bad feeling reading over some of this. Evolution has finally brought about a species that can understand how it go to this point and yet those most susceptible to woo tend to spread their genes around the most.

Havok,
This is a Christian site and I think discussion shuld stay within Cristianity and Islam as I am talking afrom Islam's stand point. If you do not believe in God or revelations, that makes no sense to start a discussin from that stand point on this frum. If yu guys ave a forum, send me the link.

- i said no one can find an essay or news written by a journaist, for example, during the time of Adam saved in a lubrary today. you have to find something else.
- Religion is not a substance that you can test in a lab. Empirical realities are different. You can use scientific approach but nt tools for religion.
- Evolutin is a theory and remains a theory. it is not a fact. to say it is, will not be scientific.
- Other faiths simply have no bases. Chritianity and Judaism to us according to Quran have corrupted thier teachings a lot while Hinduism or other faiths have lost them in tatal.
- Nt believing in God by Christians or Judiasm followers is a by product of twisted and corrupted teachings which cntunie to change!!
- Quran was preserved by memorizing it and in written forms, both. at anytime, millins of individuals are found to have memorized Quran..in Chicag there are at least 500. including kids as yung as 10. You do not compare this with those few pages found in the history here and there..
- i suggest you read, Bible and Quran before we can begin talking about what went wrong , where and how.

- So, lets talk about Islam and Christianity here. I have yet t find a scientist who could claim that talking about exitence of God is in the realm of science, is a subject that science can handle. ALl science says is "i can not prove or disprove existence of God"
if you like, i can meet you. typing is a problem for me...you are good at that!

This is a Christian site and I think discussion shuld stay within Cristianity and Islam as I am talking afrom Islam's stand point. If you do not believe in God or revelations, that makes no sense to start a discussin from that stand point on this frum. If yu guys ave a forum, send me the link.

I don't have a forum or blog myself, but there are plenty around where you could discuss with people of many differing beliefs - google will help you.
Having said that, it's my assumption (and Dan and EI can correct me if/where I'm wrong) that this is a blog to discuss things of interest to Christians, and belief in god(s) and revelations is not required to participate.

- i said no one can find an essay or news written by a journaist, for example, during the time of Adam saved in a lubrary today. you have to find something else.

But the evidence we do find doesn't support special creation. This is a scientific question. Why do you believe in a literal adam and eve in the face of the empirical evidence?

- Religion is not a substance that you can test in a lab. Empirical realities are different. You can use scientific approach but nt tools for religion.

What tools can be used to test religious claims?
There are many scientific claims made in the OT/NT/Quran/other holy books, and they are open to scientific enquiry. Why would you think they aren't?

- Evolutin is a theory and remains a theory. it is not a fact. to say it is, will not be scientific.

Evolution happens - fact. We "observer" evolution (ie change over time). We've caused it in our domesticated animals - dogs from wolves etc.
The theory of evolution is the scientific model which seeks to explain these observations. Most people who do not accept the theory of evolution take issue with "macro evolution" or speciation, yet have no issue with "micro evolution". The difference is simple a matter of time scale and not a different mechanism. What issues do you have with the theory of evolution?

- Other faiths simply have no bases. Chritianity and Judaism to us according to Quran have corrupted thier teachings a lot while Hinduism or other faiths have lost them in tatal.

Why do they have no basis? Have you read the hindu vidas or the teachings of buddha? On what grounds do you make that claim?

- Nt believing in God by Christians or Judiasm followers is a by product of twisted and corrupted teachings which cntunie to change!!

I think Christians and Jew's would disagree. In fact, there are historical reconstructions of the hebrew bible, OT & NT which predate the Quran by hundreds of years, and which compare favourably with current translations. Those books have mostly stayed the same, at least in the last ~2000 years. I think you meant to say that the interpretions change, which is true. But the interpreations of the quran have changed as well.

- Quran was preserved by memorizing it and in written forms, both. at anytime, millins of individuals are found to have memorized Quran..in Chicag there are at least 500. including kids as yung as 10. You do not compare this with those few pages found in the history here and there..

Human memory is very fallible. While it is an impressive feat for those who have done this, and while it may be true that not a word of the quran has changed since mohammed gave them, it does not support your claims of truth of the quran. I've read that the quran was not assembled into a coherent "book" until some hundred years after mohammed passed away. Surely changed could have occurred in that time?

- i suggest you read, Bible and Quran before we can begin talking about what went wrong , where and how.

I am currently working through both books (both english translations as I can't read either ancient greek nor old arabic). If you'd like to mention specific verses, I would happily discuss them with you.

The point it the quran makes scientific claims, ie semen coming from the spine, as I mentioned above. When these claims are shown to be false, and no more than was generally known at the time, it implies the book is the work of man, not of an infallible deity. I don't need to read the entire quran to see that (nor the bible, hebrew bible, hindu vida's etc etc).

- So, lets talk about Islam and Christianity here. I have yet t find a scientist who could claim that talking about exitence of God is in the realm of science, is a subject that science can handle.

Science cannot answer questions which cannot be tested. As soon as your god begins to get attributes which touch the physical world, whether it be souls, revelation, miracles, answered prayers etc, then those can be studied. That the quran claims to be the work of the creator of all things, and then fails to get simple (to us, now) questions wrong should cause us to question it all. Why do you believe it is the work of a greater being when there are mistakes we mere humans can correct (as the semen thing above)?

ALl science says is "i can not prove or disprove existence of God"

Correct - science cannot disprove the existence of a God (not, not neccesarily yours), that does not however mean that both are equally likely.

if you like, i can meet you.

Since I'm likely in another country (not US), I doubt meeting is convenient for either of us :-)

typing is a problem for me...you are good at that!

English as a sole language and typing for a living helps :-)

Havok we are still working on that error. Thanks for letting us know.

I'm still waiting for the Islamic originals of the Christian and Jewish Scriptures. All this talk of corruption has me thinking this corruption must have happened within a few centuries after Christ, but I have yet to see anyone produce an unadulterated original.

I'm still waiting for the Islamic originals of the Christian and Jewish Scriptures. All this talk of corruption has me thinking this corruption must have happened within a few centuries after Christ, but I have yet to see anyone produce an unadulterated original.

I think the argument would be that the corruption occurred prior to the originals being put to paper - prior to the oral tradition of the Torah being recorded (~600-800BCE I think), and by Paul (~50-70CE), and prior to the recording of the Gospels (~80-100CE). I'd be interested in the justification for this alleged "corruption", and whether it depends on more than simply taking mohammed at his word, but I won't be holding my breath :-)

Read through the initial post again.

“Contrary to Islamic thought, there is overwhelming historical and factual evidence that Jesus died on the cross and rose again on the third day. The evidence for Christ’s death is greater than for that of almost any event in the ancient world (Ibid., 228).”

That's not quite acurate.
There is some external (non-biblical) documents stating a man named Jesus existed in the correct time and place, and was crucified (ie Josephus's Antiquities).
To say there is overwhelming evidence of the miracle working Son of God (Yahweh) rising from the grave is overstating the case by orders of magnitude.

Havok, are you with the club that denies that Jesus ever existed? Or are you just questioning the historicity of his crucifixion?

Havok, are you with the club that denies that Jesus ever existed? Or are you just questioning the historicity of his crucifixion?

I accept there may have been a guy, possibly named Jesus, who may have been around at that time preaching. Though it's not a certainty, I'll not bother arguing it, as it is not particularly interesting. This guy, should he have existed, may have been crucified. There were literally hundreds/thousands of messianic/apocolyptic "priests" around in 1st century palestine. That some were crucified would not be extraordinary.
I don't accept, due to lack of evidence, that the miracle working son of God, who performed actual miracles and rose from the dead, existed.
Proving the first guy existed might be interesting (I think the Jesus Seminar set out to do this), but is not useful in any sense other than showing the myths and stories of Christianity were based upon a man (or men) who actually existed.
Having said that, I'd be eager to hear any evidence for the existence of the Son Of God.

As I'd also be interested in hearing of evidence of the quran being the word of God.

If the Qur’an teaches that the New Testament is God’s word (Sura: 5:46, 67, 69, 71), and that we must obey Jesus' teachings (Sura: 4:171; 5:78), how can Islam teach something different from the Theology of the New Testament?

To be fair to the quran, it mentions that Jesus was given the Gospel/message of the Lord.
That there are no writings from Jesus himself, and the Gospels were written decades after his supposed death gives plenty of room for the message given to him being corrupted.

Interesting to note that neither did Mohammed write any of the quran.

Havok, what sort of evidence would convince you Jesus of Nazareth was crucified? It's not a trick question I'm just curious.

So Yahweh couldn't create some kind of logic or reality where this was possible?
Sure a square circle is a logical no-no for us and the logic we've formulated, but this is an omnipotent, omniscient being here.
If you're going to limit Yahweh, why stop with square circle. I mean, Yahweh breaks the laws of physics all the time, why not logic as well? Seems that should also be easy for an immaterial, timeless omni-everything being.

You think Huda is likely to return with the great scientific achievements of the Quran? :-)

Logic isn't something we've formulated, it's something God IS. We simply discover it, and the world happens to reflect this characteristic of God.

As far as breaking the laws of physics, I think you would agree we may not understand them completely. Also, if I lift a rock from the ground, I am not "breaking" the law of gravity, and neither is God.

Also, your analogy of physics and logic is flawed. God is not physical, but God is logical.

As I staed above, God can only do possible things. Impossible things do not exist. They are not "things" by definition.

And no, I'm not holding my breath for Huda's science from the quran ;) I imagine he will return with the same tired, old list that has been refuted centuries ago and is so vague as to be meaningless. The koran is no more a "special" book than anything Shakespeare wrote.

Irfan, I emailed you many days ago. I'm still waiting for your reply. I thought you wanted to discuss with me privately?

Havok, what sort of evidence would convince you Jesus of Nazareth was crucified? It's not a trick question I'm just curious.

I'm happy to think that some man named Jesus was crucified. There, you got me.
Jesus the Christ, Son of God, from Nazereth (which was basically a cemetary at the time) was crucified? You'd need to show he existed first, which I guess would require proof or at least evidence for Yahweh.

Logic isn't something we've formulated, it's something God IS. We simply discover it, and the world happens to reflect this characteristic of God.

Not quite. While logic may in some sense be "transcendant", though I'm not convinced. To say that it is something "God is" is to assume God's existence, which you shouldn't be doing without evidence. If you've got that evidence, as I said above, I'd be interested.

Also, if I lift a rock from the ground, I am not "breaking" the law of gravity, and neither is God.

If God lifts a rock he is breaking the conservation of energy, and thermodynamics.

God is not physical, but God is logical.

What does that mean? I've not known any other entity from logic to think for itself, or exist outside of the domain of logic. How do you know God is logic, when God is also immaterial and Love and Jealous, and Justice etc?

And no, I'm not holding my breath for Huda's science from the quran ;) I imagine he will return with the same tired, old list that has been refuted centuries ago and is so vague as to be meaningless.

Yeah, I'm expecting the same. But you never know :-)

The koran is no more a "special" book than anything Shakespeare wrote.

Or the old/new testament. All works of men. Though I have to say, old william had a fantastic way with words - more coherent than the other authors, though I've not read them in the original languages. The quran is supposed consist of beautiful poetry in arabic

Or the old/new testament. All works of men. Though I have to say, old william had a fantastic way with words - more coherent than the other authors, though I've not read them in the original languages. The quran is supposed consist of beautiful poetry in arabic

The Holy Bible and its 66 books cohere in a way that is truly remarkable considering the differing styles, authors, times and locations. No other collection of works even comes close.

There is something inherently suspicious about one man, with no witnesses, claiming to hear new revelations from God on a regular basis. Mohammed claimed such a thing, and produced no miracles to back it up.

The Bible clearly conveys its central messages in any language. It does not merely claim to be from God based on style, like the quran. The content of the Bible demonstrates its divine origins, in English, Arabic, or otherwise.

The Holy Bible and its 66 books cohere in a way that is truly remarkable considering the differing styles, authors, times and locations. No other collection of works even comes close.

In your opinion/interpretation. From my reading of it it is an incoherent mess. Which of us is correct?
Whether it is coherent or not does not say anything about the truth claims within it.

There is something inherently suspicious about one man, with no witnesses, claiming to hear new revelations from God on a regular basis. Mohammed claimed such a thing, and produced no miracles to back it up.

Muslims would disagree. The beauty of the quran's verses are just one of the miracles. The strength of the social system espoused within its pages etc.
If miracles are required to back up claims of the supernatural, then you should love Sathya Sai Baba - a walking miracle factory, with many attestations from followers (eye witness accounts, unlike the at least second hand accounts of the Gospels). He's even raised the dead :-)

The Bible clearly conveys its central messages in any language. It does not merely claim to be from God based on style, like the quran. The content of the Bible demonstrates its divine origins, in English, Arabic, or otherwise.

I'm sure the quran gets it's message across just fine in other languages.
How does the bible demonstrate it's divine origins? I've read most of it, and read a lot of commentary on it, and the whole divine aspect of it is lost to me. It still seems exactly like the work of man. If there is truly something special about the bible, surely you should be able to point it out?

Why do you believe in a literal adam and eve in the face of the empirical evidence?

Quran said so. And I have reason to believe taht Quran is correct.

There are many scientific claims made in the OT/NT/Quran/other holy books, and they are open to scientific enquiry. Why would you think they aren't?
If there is a scientific point made in Quran, you could test that. And that has to be correct. There are some 1000 verses that deal with scientific stuff...your understanding and explanation of "Nutfa from between Chest and spine" is not correct. If one does not understand Arabic and how phrases and idioms are used in Arabic, one can not understand verses like this.

Evolution happens - fact.

"evolution happens" is different from "human evolved from ..."

Why do they have no basis? Have you read the hindu vidas or the teachings of buddha? On what grounds do you make that claim?

I have read them all once. Just reading them alone tells you they are just talks...and Quran does not even consider among 'books'. (so, why not talk about Quran and Bible and see why not beleive in what Bible says!)

I think Christians and Jew's would disagree. In fact, there are historical reconstructions of the hebrew bible, OT & NT which predate the Quran by hundreds of years, and which compare favourably with current translations Those books have mostly stayed the same, at least in the last ~2000 years. I think you meant to say that the interpretions change, which is true. But the interpreations of the quran have changed as well..

Of course Jews and Christians would not agree. that is why we are discussing things here. Now if you can not show me the complete original writings, you have a prolem. you have to tell me where did you get the interpretations that you have now. YOu are telling me that Jesus said things, then he went away. 50 to 70 years later, an enemy had change of heart. He puts together a mix of stories, history, his thoughts, others sayings and sayings of Jesus and that is your 'original' Bible. Then centuries later, since there was no originals, there were many bibles differening in primary teachings and belief. COuncil of necea finally under Roman empire puts together one bible. Then things keep changining again. I have bible where a verse ends like this: '...said Jesus.' in a newer bible the same ends like this: '...said Jesus, son of God'.

Quran was written and memorized in Muhammad's life time. It was recited to each other in his life time. It was memorized and written by many. memorized by thousands. Within a few years, 2-5 it was put together in book form simply by those who had written it and memorized it. how do you compare them? we still have the original.

Memory is fallibale, and for that reason, given the above, how can you even believe that Bible is STILL Word of God?

I would like to stick with this one point. Bible or Quran- what is the Word of God and how do we know...I will be more than happy to talk about existence of God with you later sometimes....

meanwhile, you guys have a happy Easter!

btw I asked one of my coworkers: If Easter is a happy ocassion and it should be, how do you take those who crussified Jesus?

The beauty of the quran's verses are just one of the miracles. The strength of the social system espoused within its pages etc.

This is a curious claim since Mohammed adamantly refused to perform miracles to validate his claims, deferring only to the quran, one miracle. Yet, you seem to be saying Muslims would claim additional miracles. The strength of the social system? I don't know what that means or how it qualifies as a miracle.

How does the bible demonstrate it's divine origins?

I'm glad you axed. Manuscript evidence, archaeology and predicitve prophecy, for starters. There simply is no comparison between Mohammed and Jesus of Nazareth. Since you are only throwing up a rhetorical smokescreen rather than looking for real answers, I won't go into detail. For anyone genuinely interested in the subject, http://www.answering-islam.org/ is a good place to start and treats the subject exhaustively.

Havok,

never heard of your man Sathya Sai Baba. I appreciate the info. I do plan to check him(?) out. I hope he's better than that Mithras guy people like to trot out.

Irfan,

Memory is fallibale, and for that reason, given the above, how can you even believe that Bible is STILL Word of God?

You write this, and still believe the quran, which Mohammed could neither read nor write, is true? You have torpedoed your own argument. In addition, it is well-known Utham rounded up and burned variant copies of the quran to suit his own whims. There are modern variants of the quran, proving it has not been perfectly preserved. The autographs have not been published and must be assumed not to exist. Preservation does not imply truth regardless. The original Harry Potter autographs also exist, and that existence doesn't make them true. Finally, there is powerful evidence that the entire NT was written and in circulation less than 40 years after Christ's death, and within the lifetimes of hundreds of eyewitnesses who had seen the resurrected Christ.

Quran said so. And I have reason to believe taht Quran is correct.

And why do you put faith into a book, in opposition to the abundant empirical evidence supporting an alternate view?

If there is a scientific point made in Quran, you could test that. And that has to be correct. There are some 1000 verses that deal with scientific stuff...your understanding and explanation of "Nutfa from between Chest and spine" is not correct. If one does not understand Arabic and how phrases and idioms are used in Arabic, one can not understand verses like this.

So, what is the correct understanding? What other verses contain scientific information which was not not known at the time of mohammed? A couple of references to Sura and verse would be nice.

"evolution happens" is different from "human evolved from ..."

True, but you said that evolution didn't happen. You said it was a theory and not evidence. I was just setting you straight.

I have read them all once. Just reading them alone tells you they are just talks...and Quran does not even consider among 'books'. (so, why not talk about Quran and Bible and see why not beleive in what Bible says!)

So what is it that actually sets the quran apart from the other holy books? Is it simply the great poetry? Is there something I can actually check which will tell me it is more than the others?

Quran was written and memorized in Muhammad's life time. It was recited to each other in his life time. It was memorized and written by many. memorized by thousands. Within a few years, 2-5 it was put together in book form simply by those who had written it and memorized it. how do you compare them? we still have the original.

My historical research has said that the quran was put together from various sources, some oral, some written. Commencing some 10+ years after his death, and was not finalised until ~100 years later (perhaps more). Do you have some sources for a different historical perspective?

Memory is fallibale, and for that reason, given the above, how can you even believe that Bible is STILL Word of God?

I don't. I think the bible is a collection of myths, stories and historical events all mixed together.

I would like to stick with this one point. Bible or Quran- what is the Word of God and how do we know...I will be more than happy to talk about existence of God with you later sometimes....

I'd rather talk about the existence of god. Only after there is agreement that a god exists, can we really start to talk about whether any holy books are it's written word. To do otherwise seems to be begging the question somewhat.
In lieu of doing that, we can talk about why you believe your book is the word of a supernatural being, but don't leave out the option of other books being it's message, or there simply being no message (or no entity).

btw I asked one of my coworkers: If Easter is a happy ocassion and it should be, how do you take those who crussified Jesus?

Easter is an ancient holy day signifying rebirth and fertility. It's the time (in the northern hemisphere) where the days become longer than the nights, and so the sun has conquered night. It's also spring time, and the time when flowers come out, animals have young etc. This is what easter signifies (even the egg is a symbol of rebirth and fertility). I don't buy into the Jesus stuff, but I assume it's a happy occasion, because it was the time Jesus ascended into heaven.

This is a curious claim since Mohammed adamantly refused to perform miracles to validate his claims, deferring only to the quran, one miracle. Yet, you seem to be saying Muslims would claim additional miracles. The strength of the social system? I don't know what that means or how it qualifies as a miracle.

Mohammed probably refused because it might have seemed to be testing Allah. I believe thats something Christians can agree with. As for miracles, theres the visit from Gabriel to recite the quran, the flight to heaven, the conquest of the arab world.
I'm sure someone who actually believed it could come up with a more comprehensive list, and might actually try to defend it :-)

I'm glad you axed. Manuscript evidence, archaeology and predicitve prophecy, for starters. There simply is no comparison between Mohammed and Jesus of Nazareth. Since you are only throwing up a rhetorical smokescreen rather than looking for real answers, I won't go into detail. For anyone genuinely interested in the subject, http://www.answering-islam.org/ is a good place to start and treats the subject exhaustively.

Manuscript evidence? That you've found manuscripts, and can somewhat reconstruct what they likely said in the early versions?
Archeological evidence? You know they've found the city of Troy, so I guess all the events in the Illiad happened too.
Predictive prophecies? Do tell? The book of Daniel, a fave of most prophecy lovers was likely written after the events it claimed to foretell. The prophecies of Jesus's coming all seem to be taken out of context and distorted - Isaiah 7:14 concerned Ahaz's line and that his wife (or one of them) was currently preganant - "young woman" instead of virgin, and in the present tense. Could you provide links to explanations of biblical prophecy you consider solid?
Will check that site. If it has actual prophetic explanations, don't worry about responding to my earlier question.

never heard of your man Sathya Sai Baba. I appreciate the info. I do plan to check him(?) out. I hope he's better than that Mithras guy people like to trot out.

Well, the one thing Sai Baba has in his favour is that he's alive today, and therefore both of us would have some trouble doubting his existence.
The other is that there is a lot of documentary evidence "proving" his miracles. Written testimony, video clips (youtube has some great clips). He's also got an enourmous following not only in india, but around the world.
having said that I think the guys is a complete fraud.
I'm curious, however, after having looked into him and his miracles, whether you could explain what you think of him and why? Feel free to use my email address (or perhaps a blog post). I'd very much appreciate your reasoning here.

Finally, there is powerful evidence that the entire NT was written and in circulation less than 40 years after Christ's death, and within the lifetimes of hundreds of eyewitnesses who had seen the resurrected Christ.

Sorry. I agree with pretty much everything else in that paragraph, but this is a little much. Within 40 years I think you can squeeze in Paul's letters, and maybe Mark (though I think it's dated after the destruction of the second temple). Matthew came latter, and Luke/Acts later still. Not sure of John, though I seem to remember it being around 90CE, and Revelations in the early second century.
If the evide

Peace,
- when i said memory is fallible, i meant that Quran was (1) WRITTEN in Muhammad's life time, (2) MEMORIZED in his life time, (3) him and his companions checked/ verified taht memorization was correct.

Now you have to see that MEMORIZED and WRITTEN stuff keeps a check on each other. This is not the case with Bible. DO you not know that the council had to sit looooong time after Jesus to find out what is to be included? and discarded many versions. Even today different sects have Bibles that either miss chapters or have added chapters.

Second point: Omar, the first caliph after Muhammad was so care ful about not changing things that he said "if Muhammad did not tell us to compile written Quran into one book, I do not want to do that" that was his opinion yet shows how careful Muslims were about faith. Second Caliph Uthman thought differently. Masses were entering Islam and they needed to have a book to recite. Now either they would go around to everyone holding onto his own written piece and make thier own books or government publishes one. Uthman simply went ahead and compiled writings into one book in the same order Muhammad told them to memorize Quran in.

UTHAN CHANGED QURAN:
To say that Uthman acted on whims is something you can always say about anyone. Actually, I am sure if Uthman had tried to change things, he would have been killed. You think people would accept this? He did not write Quran in book form. Others did on his orders. And that 'official' copy was verified by many companions.

He burned all 'personal' partial copies of quran with people so that down the line, like bible, people may find pieces and try to put them together in order they liked and cause confusion. Do you know that in AArabic some letters could be pronounced slightly different and they may change the meaning? So with non Arabs entering, how do you preserve tha actual word and it pronunciation...

MUHAMMAD WAS ILLITERATE:

last point and this one. Interestingly, opponents back then never accused Uthman for this that you now do. It is another proof that an illiterate man is giving you something that you can not imagine. It was indeed a revelation. Are you saying that prophets should be well educated? then they could be atually blamed to have fooled people with thier superiority....in education.

BTW original copy written by Uthman is still available in Istanbul.

lastly: I think we first decide which book is Word of God. Christians believe in existence of God and so do Jews and us. So, it is not an important topic for me. As I said, I am here to discuss I and C.

Scientific facts and miracles:
http://miraclesofthequran.com/scientific_index.html

Uthman's Quran:

http://net.lib.byu.edu/~rdh7/wwi/versa/versa7.html
Look at article 246

This is Peace Treaty of Versailles
and its article 246 says:


ARTICLE 246.

Within six months from the coming into force of the present Treaty, Germany will restore to His Majesty the King of the Hedjaz the original Koran of the Caliph Othman, which was removed from Medina by the Turkish authorities and is stated to have been presented to the ex-Emperor William II.

I will post another one explaining how the SAYINGS of Muhammad were preserved and catagorized. You will see the intense efforts and care taken by those who did. You can PROBABLY compare Bible with Muhammad's sayings...

Method of preservations of the Quran after the demise of the Prophet It is an incontrovertible historical truth that the text of the Holy Qur'an extant today is, syllable for syllable, exactly the same as the Holy Prophet (PBUH) had offered to the world as the Word of God. After the demise of the Holy Prophet, the first Caliph Hadhrat Abu Bakr (PBUH) assembled all the Huffaz and the written records of the Holy Qur'an and with their help had the whole text written in Book form. In the time of Hadhrat 'Uthman (PBUH) copies of this original version were made and officially dispatched to the Capitals of the Islamic World. Two Of these copies exist in the world today, one in Istanbul and the other in Tashkent. Whosoever is so inclined may compare any printed text of the Holy Qur'an with those two copies, he shall find no variation.

And how can one expect any discrepancy, when there have existed several million Huffaz in every generation since the time of the Holy Prophet (PBUH) and in our own time? Should anyone alter a syllable of the original text of the Qur'an, these Huffaz would at once expose the mistake.

In the last century, an Institute of Munich University in Germany collected FORTY-TWO THOUSAND copies of the Holy Qur'an including manuscripts and printed texts produced in each period in the various parts of the Islamic World. Research work was carried out on these texts for half a century, at the end of which the researchers concluded that apart from copying mistakes, there was no discrepancy in the text of these forty-two thousand copies, even though they belonged to the period between the 1st Century Hijra to 14th Century Hijra and had been procured from all parts of the world. This Institute, alas! perished in the bombing attacks on Germany during World War II, but the findings of its research project survived.

Another point that must be kept in view is that the word in which the Qur'an was revealed is a living language in our own time. It is still current as the mother tongue of about a hundred million people from Iraq to Morocco. In the non-Arab world too, hundreds of thousands of people study and teach this language.

The grammar of the Arabic language, its lexicon, its phonetic system and its phraseology, have remained intact for fourteen hundred years.

A modern Arabic-speaking person can comprehend the Holy Qur'an with as much proficiency as did the Arabs of fourteen centuries ago. This, then, is an important attribute of Muhammad (PBUH), which is shared by no other Prophet or Leader of Religion. The Book which God revealed to Him for the guidance of mankind is today's in its original language without the slightest alteration in its vocabulary.

just wondering...who is ABU SALEEB?
this name means "slave of the cross". YOu will find no muslim with such name....we are only slave of God and not even slaves of Muhammad.

just wondering...who is ABU SALEEB?
this name means "slave of the cross". YOu will find no muslim with such name....we are only slave of God and not even slaves of Muhammad.

He's not a Muslim, and it's a pseudonym.

Ignore my request for references for the scientific things - I was in a rush when I posted earlier, but I see now they're all links to explanations.

Irfan, I'm wondering if you've read any of these scientific pronouncements of the quran?
The explanation for creation from hot smoke does not resemble the big bang as it is understood in science. Initially there were no particles, so there could have been no "smoke".
Also, the miracle of iron explanation is incorrect. I know it's a wiki link, but it should give you an idea of the life cycle of a star
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stellar_evolution

Irfan, are there any items on that list which you consider incontravertible? If any/all of those pronouncements in the quran were shown to be either knowledge which was present in mohammeds society, or incorrect, would you accept that the quran is not innerant?

Havok,
Suppose Quran says one thing, and science says another. Am I going to say Quran is incorrect? NO!

Why? it might be matter of time that both will agree....science will make some more progress and meaning of Quran will come clear. It has happened before....

Quran is not rimarily a book of science, but if it does make a statement dealing with scientific stuff, it will always be correct and if science disagree, science will be wrong for time being.

Send me a couple of scientific things you thing Quran is wrong about. Also tell me what you think about Bible and science in the same manner. Remember, we are talking about Islam and Christianity (or Quran and Bible) and not science and Islam.

It surprises me that you could accpet Bible as revelation/ word of god with all that and not quran. If Bible is acceptable to you then Quran should be more acceptable.

I don't in general undertand why people think Religion and Science oppose each other. We don't think so. Religion deals with scientific stuff as well as other things.

Actually, what went on in dark ages has turned peopl against 'religious people' and therefore religion at least in part.

Havok,
I do read your posts. Problem is you talk about several points at the same time and I am trying to limit to "what is word of God" and what has changed.

you even mentioned 66 books. Now i think even this number varies from one to another sect.

Irfan,

Why? it might be matter of time that both will agree....science will make some more progress and meaning of Quran will come clear. It has happened before....

Examples of this would be great.

Quran is not rimarily a book of science, but if it does make a statement dealing with scientific stuff, it will always be correct and if science disagree, science will be wrong for time being.

So you're stating that regardless of what was presented to you, the quran could not be shown to be false in your eyes? Can you argue the validity of that assumption?

Send me a couple of scientific things you thing Quran is wrong about.

I'm confident that every scientific statement in the quran is either wrong, was commonly known at the time ie. Spherical Earth, or the subject of serious twisting to try to make it conform to current scientific thought. Can you provide any Sura's which are clear evidence of some kind of prediction on the part of Mohammed concerning science.

Also tell me what you think about Bible and science in the same manner. Remember, we are talking about Islam and Christianity (or Quran and Bible) and not science and Islam.

I think the bible is in the same company as the quran. I haven't found anything to make me think that the bible is scientifically accurate.

It surprises me that you could accpet Bible as revelation/ word of god with all that and not quran. If Bible is acceptable to you then Quran should be more acceptable.

I don't accept either as revelation or word of God.
Why should the quran be more acceptable than the bible? Can you demonstrate that belief?

I don't in general undertand why people think Religion and Science oppose each other. We don't think so. Religion deals with scientific stuff as well as other things.

And when religion makes scientific pronouncements, it invariably gets them wrong.

Actually, what went on in dark ages has turned peopl against 'religious people' and therefore religion at least in part.

What went on in the dark ages which is relevant to people turning away from religion?

I do read your posts. Problem is you talk about several points at the same time and I am trying to limit to "what is word of God" and what has changed.

Ok. Please provide evidence that the quran is the word of God. We can leave the previous questions standing if you'd like, though I think similar themes will come up whicl discussing whether the quran is the word of God.
Note: in doing this, you'll need to provide some decent evidence for the existence of God, so as to provide a reason for there being a word of God.

you even mentioned 66 books. Now i think even this number varies from one to another sect.

I think it was Dan who mentioned the 66 books of the bible. You're right that various sects accept fewer or greater books (perhaps not fewer - is 66 the number of books generally accepted by all sects, with some adding more?)

So, Irfan, we can stick to discussing whether the quran is the word of God or not, if you'd like

Havok,
I will send you a link to an article. I have written one, but will send you a link. Typing up will be too much for me. I generally do not get involved in chats. actually it is the seond time in my life...

After talking to you, I am seriousely thinking of writing details about each point and making them available on a website...I am busy today as it is the last day of the week here in Chicago and trying to complete some projects. I will come back in a day or so...thanks and have a good weekend.

I think it was Dan who mentioned the 66 books of the bible. You're right that various sects accept fewer or greater books (perhaps not fewer - is 66 the number of books generally accepted by all sects, with some adding more?)

Yep. The Roman Catholic church adds several more books, but they are considered pseudo-canonical.

Irfan,
Please do provide a link. I'm interested in reading it.
Just a quick question. The list of miracles of the quran you provided lists that prayer causes sick people to get well faster/better
http://miraclesofthequran.com/scientific_55.html
There have actually been scientific studies done concerning this (though it was likely done by Christians, so you'd likely ignore the results). The results of the studies show either no effect over and above a placebo, or a detrimental effect (when the patients knew they were being prayed for). The effect mentioned in the page linked above reports a positive effect (again, which God was being prayed to?), shows a positive effect to belief, not a positive effect through the hand of Yahweh/Allah/God etc. Basically, the power of positive thought, not the power of God.

Peace, All:

I was very busy and then sick...of course I live in Chicago!

Soon, you will be able to visit a site GainPeace.com. There you will see each point that was brought up here with detailed answer, examples, references etc.

I thought such discussions go on all the time, so why not type up stuff just once!!!

The above discussion expanded so much...there are questions and then counter questions and explanations of explanations.

I truely thank Havok, Dan and others. I ask God to bless us all and accept our sincerety.

The first article on that site would be:

How do we know what the Word of God is.

Then we will list all those points like Scientific stuff, contradictions, compilation, etc.

Irfan,

I'm looking forward to your new site.

Leave us a link again when it's ready.

Hi Dan , Sorry for being late .

The Last comment I read from you was on 25/2/2008 , and here is my comment :

Regarding to my previous word " If Jesus is the God , how for a God to allow some people he created to torture and crucify him , then he died , or how for a God to be dead ? "

You answered me in the last comment I read for you with " Why not ? Can't God do anything ? As far as God being dead , you have to understand that in the Incarnation , Isa took on a human nature in addition to his divine nature . The word became flesh . I Don't see why God couldn't do this , but you seem to be limiting God to what he can't do . "

My answer for that is :

For your word " Can't God can do anything ? "

If the God can do any thing as you mentioned . Is it not strange … That Jesus as a God didn't choose to stop those people by himself instead of allowing them to crucify and torture him , why he didn't stop them by his own capabilities as a God .

And if the God can do anything as well . Is it not strange … That Jesus as a God didn't choose to end his human life by himself as he ends every one's life , and it doesn't mean that he gonna kill himself , but he is a God and he can control everything in that world , he determines when every one gonna be borne and when every one gonna die . If he wanna die , why he didn't determine a time to end his life as a human , as he does end every one's life in the regular way ? Could not he do that for himself ?

For your word " Mohammed accepted the Gospels , which clearly demonstrate that Isa both claimed to be and proved he was God . Mohammed simply didn't understand biblical Christianity . "

My answer for that is :

When Prophet Mohamed accepted Prophet Isa's book , it was stating that there is one God sent him to his nation , and prophet Isa is a messenger as every messenger not a God , which means , prophet Mohamed did understand every thing very well . For an Aya ( part of Quraan ) for that , see Chapter 3 , Sorat Al-Baquara , Aya 285 , it means " Pr.Mohamed and the people who are believing in the God believed in what he got from his God . All of them believed in the God , his angels , his books , and his prophets . The God didn't make a difference between the prophets , and they are all accepted what they got from their God "
The meaning behind this Aya is " prophet Mohamed and his nation believed in the previous prophets as a prophets and believed in their books which stating that it's only one God , Allah . "

Some thing else I can provide you from Quraan related to the point , see Chapter 3 , Sorat Aal Emran , Aya 79 , it means " No one of the humans got the book and the prophethood can tell the people worship me not the God , but he should say be the God's worshipers , as you have in the book . "

That aya was from the God to Negran's Christians , when they worshiped prophet Isa .

It was also for the Aba Rafe the jewish and Negran's Christian leader when they asked prophet Mohamed if he wanna them to worship him , prophet Mohammed answered with : you can not worship any another one , it's just the God " Allah " , he sent me to you with that message .

Moreover prophet Isa himself never believed that he is the God , see Chapter 7 , Sorat Al-Ma'eda , Aya 116 and 117 , the idea behind those Ayat is " when the God asked prophet Isa , if he told the people to worship him and his mother , prophet Isa answered that he didn't say it . He told the people to worship Allah , his God and their God . "

See also chapter 3 , Sorat Aal Emran , Aya 51 , it means " Prophet Isa told the people that Allah is his God and their God , they should worship Allah , it's the right way "

The last part of that comment was with :

My word " All the prophets are sinless "

You answered with " this is the first time I have heard this . Do you have cite from the Quran or elsewhere ? "

My answer for that is :

Yes , I do . See Chapter 27 , Aya 1 till Aya 5 .The meaning behind those Ayat is " prophet Mohammed is sinless in what he got from the God to the people , which means he never says something wrong from the God to the people . "

But , regarding to his own mistakes as a person not a messenger , it's all limited to the small mistakes with no intention , never sins with an intention .

As you know Dan , there is a difference between the sins and the mistakes . The sins are a great faults with an intentions , while the mistakes are a small faults with no intentions , which means the mistakes never being a sins .

For the prophets , they never say something wrong from the God to the people , and as a persons , they never do the great faults , it's all limited to the small faults with no intentions which is not a sins , hence they are sinless .

Thank you for your time .

Dear Moslem friends,

Question: Can you please provide me with the most significant and remarkable prophecy that Muhammad made that was fulfilled? A prophet means one who gives prophecy about future events in light of God's will and purpose.

Question: Why was Muhammad allowed to marry at least 12 wives when Koran limits to 4? Is Muhammad above the law he gave in Koran - isn't that a definition of sin?

Question: Explain Surah 25:4-5

Question: Why is Koran considered from God based on scientific evidence such as Embryology when doctors much prior to Koran already discover this? In print by 3 doctors (Galen (130AD), Samuel ha-Yehudi (150AD) and Hippocrates (400BC). Please explain this?

Question: Please explain Surah 86:6-7 - do you then reject modern science for this?

Many more things that will challenge but will leave for another time.

Hi Trish,

Thanks for your comment.

Great questions. I doubt that we'll get any straight answers but I hope we do. We shall see.

I think I remember hearing about the embryology argument and the "clot of blood" bit...

We used to have a couple of muslim regulars but they've moved on...let's see if we hear from others.

Unfortunately, Muslim apologetics tend to boil down to "the Bible is corrupted wherever it doesn't agree with me" sprinkled with a little "Paul was the Anti-Christ". There are high-level Muslim apologists out there, but the rank and file can't seem to get past the basic stuff that has been answered many, many times.

The primary problem for Islamic apologists seems to be that the author(s) of the Quran didn't seem to understand basic Christianity (much like most modern Christians). The early Muslims didn't even understand that the Quran contradicted the Bible. Thus, you have centuries down the road, Muslims have to come up with biblical corruption charges which have no evidence and actually contradict early Muslims who wrote that Christians could trust their Scriptures.

I just have all these images of pots and kettles.... black ones!!

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